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The Hydrogen Super Highway
America needs to support entrenprenuers and start-up visionaries who are attempting to build break-through businesses. Please visit the Interstate Traveler Company for a Michigan-based example of this.
Unfortunately, it is very difficult for someone with a brand new idea to get funded. This is because most investors are too conservative and too wedded to old world thinking. The government needs to gamble on new technologies. Even when these companies fail, the government can collect the intellectual capital, hire some of the best engineers, and keep the ball rolling. This could be a government version of the old Bell Labs.
This is not the way our government invests. In the words of George Carlin, "Today, America is really good at blowing shit up!" We need to get better at innovating and leading the world or we will get left behind.
Will America Lead?
QuestionItNow Blogs
posted by REB 84 | 12/01/2005 11:22:00 PM
20 Comments:
100% truth! Our transportation system is feeble and wasteful when measured against Europe and Japan. The Terminator has introduced and passed legislation that mandates Hydrogen stations throughout California. http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/
Another alternative is the Mag-Lev train that uses electro-magnets to propel itself. A mag-lev train from NY to DC would save the US billions in energy costs and get you to either destination in minutes. (it travels with virtually no friction at 250 miles an hour!) A trial run is beginning between DC and B-more. Read about it more here http://www.bwmaglev.com/
Hello Cal,
The Interstate Traveler system also utilizes Mag-Lev technology. Will our government see the light before it is too late. Good for Arnold! It is nice to hear about a Republican who isn't owned by big oil.
On a positive note on the same topic, I read this week that BP is doubling its investment in alternative energy. Reminds my of tobacco companies investing in food. Smart corporations diversify.
This is also an area where American innovation has the potential to push us ahead in the world.
REB 84
Awesome stuff! When do you think we will see something like this?
Hopefully before 2010. DC/Balto is doing tests now. Hydrogen cars are becoming more and more commonplace. Look for those by 2007
Actually Ford Motor Company is running hydrogen vehicles on a test basis for municipal vehicles in Taylor, MI and I read that GM drove Bush and co. around either South Korea or China in hyrdrogen fuel cell limos during their last visit a couple weeks ago.
The larger question is when and if hydrogen vehicles will be widely adopted. How safe are they?
generally...aside from exterioirs...Hydrogen cars are very save. The main emmission from these cars is pruified water. The Rocky Mountain Institute said "In many ways, hydrogen is a good deal safer than gasoline or diesel. Like any fuel, hydrogen stores significant amounts of energy, and handling it requires certain safety precautions. But hydrogen can be safer than gasoline if it is used properly." See what BMW is doing with thier tanks here
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/03/16/hydrogen.cars/
Cal,
Thanks for the info. I just remember those old new reals of the Hindenberg blowing up with hydrogen. How well do the tanks do in a crash? What if somebody screws up and doesn't take the proper safety precautions at the pump? Someone once asked me if I would feel comfortable with my 16 year old son filling up a car with Hydrogen. On an emotional level, my answer is no. However, this may actually open up a new jog segment. We may need professionally trained service people to fill vehicles up with Hydgrogen.
There is opportunity in every crisis. The keys are recognizing and then seizing opportunities. 21st Century mass transit and alernative sources of energy offer such an opportunity.
Now it is time for America to get off its collective ass and make something happen. Aren't we the people who put a man on the moon?
REB 84
Last I checked...
Funding for something like this should absolutely should come from the defense department's fund ... and the Hydrogen Superhighway should be funded as a part of the "national security"
... now that is an idea that should be blogged about with all the various
people working on environmental issues that are concerned with the artic
drilling etc. an untapped source of activist citizens.... many of them
could probably get behind pushing a thought like this ...
I think this is where I differ with many. I feel that the LAST place we should look for funding for this type a project is the government. Consider the FDA and FEMA. Is this the ilk we want funding and regulating a project like this? What we need is for (here it goes) BIG BUSINESSES to take an interest in these projects. (awww he said the BB words) If there was a profit to be made in this there would be line of investors rivaling a Springstein concert in New Jersey.
Another issue I have (among many...ask my wife!) is with taking money from defense. Does anyone think if we all disarmed war would end? Human nature says not. The day we throw all of the guns into the sea is the day someone invents a lethal spitball. In a fallen world we are a violent and evil people. I think the better idea is to take some of the money spent on defense and give it back to YOU. The people it rightfully belongs to! The founding fathers never imagined a tax state where you are penalized for being successful and the poor are hung out to dry with do nothing go nowhere social programs that humiliate and degrade...
uhh...uhh was I soap boxing again?
(someone get him down...he might hurt himself)
That's right...we were talking about hydrogen...
Anyway, I think this is something that could start a grass roots dealio. Think Global...Act Local. I wonder what Rep. Conyers would say about this? We'd need a champion. Unfortunately, If we could only find a way to bottle up all of the gas produced between the walls of Congress...We'd never run out of fuel.
Cal,
You are in rare form tonight. That's good. When I was speaking of government funding for these sort of projects I was thinking along the lines of seed funding. I agree government has a tendency to stock up agencies with unprofessional cronies as we saw in FEMA, etc.
The defense department can fund something like this to support its logistics infrastructure and rapid deployment of supplies to ports, etc. This could make defense more efficient.
Grass roots would be tough on a project that requires this scale. However, a regional approach may work well. I suspect we will be hearing from some experts shortly.
Hey guys, this is your cue:)
As I am a very numbers oriented person, I thought I would share with you some of the content of the presentation the ITC made for a joint meeting of the US DOE and DOT on June 1st of 2005.
The following numbers relate to a planned installation of the Hydrogen Super Highway on 54,000 miles of right of way known as the Eisenhower Memorial Interstate Highway System.
Eisenhower Interstate system 54,000 + miles
Basic ‘Round Number’ System Estimates:
162,000 -Transports
22,000 -Traveler Stations
18,000 -Utility Substations
45,900,000,000 -watt/hour capacity (45.9 Billion Watts)
156,656,700,000 -BTU/hour (3.413 BTU/ watt-hour)
1,620,000 -gallons of water per hour
$540,000,000,000 -cost to build at $10 Million / mile
$242,000,000,000 -Annual Public Revenue
9,720,000 -Simultaineous Passenger Capacity
750,000,000 -Tons of Stainless Steel
Besides the bear facts... the impact such a national network would have on commerce, tourism, and all the industries affected by its construction. Case in point that 22,000 Traveler Stations would each have at least 3 Lease Holders constituting 66,000 individual businesses each employing full time workers. If each of the 66,000 business had 10 workers on average, the total job creation is 660,000 jobs.
The good effects are many...
The ability of a national network of 162,000 transit vehicles to evacuate a city like New Orleans in a day or so is unrivaled. If the government called up 10,000 transit vehicles that are out on the rail across the country, they would be able to evacuate 60,000 people an hour or faster... in ten hours that is 600,000 people evacuated from the path of a hurricane...
Sincerely,
Justin
So, instead of investing in modern mass transit, our politicians and SMART (Southeast Michighan Mass - something that starts with R - Transit)continue to live the legacy of GM selling Detroit's street cars to Mexico City. Detroit has nothing but the People Mover (Coleman's Train) and some nasty, smelly diesel buses to show for it.
There has to be a better way!
By the way, many suburban Detroit communities have decided to pull out of SMART because they realize this is an antiquated and grossly inefficient way to move people in the 21st Century.
How does the cost of building something like the Hydrogen Super Highway compare with building a traditional subway?
Justin,
this is great stuff! My kids love the animation. They asked "Daddy, when can I ride the train?" As I just posted on the 'lead' blog, here is where we use the system to work toward the common good...Both sides of the Ailse! The Republican Governor of Maryland just signed a bill to institute a new computer system to give information to riders and drivers to accentuate the benefits of public transportation. This system also helps monitor and regulate emissions from our diesel and natural gas buses. There is current talk of hydrogen in our near future. We must be the ones who get the word out. Keep up the good work Justin!
Sorry to be a "wet blanket" but all the hype on hydrogen fuel omits one critical item; where do we get the hydrogen? Whatever the process, obtaining hydrogen requires a tremendous amount of hydrocarbons or electrical energy. So why all the hype about hydrogen powered cars????????
The most practical and efficient source of hydrogen is from hydrocarbons (oil or gas). This proven process will require the importation of even more oil and gas.
Another, more costly source is the use of electrical energy (lots of energy) to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in water. Since most electricity is generated from coal (with its serious pollution problems) or oil and gas. All of these processes produce a tremendous amount of greenhouse gasses.
The ultimate solution may be to switch to nuclear power plants. But that is another story. In the meantime we could try switching to bicycles.
Bill B. USA
Bill B.
The Interstate Traveler Company is proposing using solar power to break down water to produce Hydrogen. Besides Hydrogen, the process also produces electricity and clean water.
Justin can add more details.
REB 84
QuestionItNow - Blogs
When I read of solar plants being THE SOLUTION, I recall a comment by our Sierra Club leader who also happened to be an engineer with a power company. Although he worked for a power company he was very concerned about the environment. While on a bus taking us to the mountains for a backpacking trip we passed a giant solar power plant out in the desert. Our leader pointed out that in spite of the tremendous area covered by the solar panels there was only one relatively small cable to transfer power from the plant to the electrical grid. Even a very large plant located out in the sunny California desert was not capable of producing much power. It's a nice dream but bicycles are still a more practical solution.
Did I mention we rode on a maglev train from downtown Shanghai to the airport? Went almost 300 mph and a very smooth ride. But it is probably an economic disaster. There are articles on it which I found on Google.
Bill,
With the current solar configurations...you are correct. With the current solar technology providing Hydrogen would be impractical. However new technologies are being developed now that would multiply the effectiveness of solar cells to make them ,by 2030, able to generate 1/2 of the worlds energy. Worldwide photovoltaic sales are growing at 40 to 50% per year. Work at Australian National University shows that Sliver solar cell technology can achieve electricity costs below retail electricity costs within five years, with the right investment. Explosive growth in sales in the commercial and residential sector will then follow. I realize that the economics are a tough one because it would be regulated by the GSA and department of transportation (can you say Acela...brakes...who needs brakes?) so I'm right there with ya. I just think with the right minds and the right inventments...this might...could work?!
I wanted to help you dry out your "Wet blanket" if I can. To help answer, "Where do we get the hydrogen?" Well... Hydrogen is the most abundant fuel source in the universe. Now I think your next statement was referring to energy conversion and what’s more practical and efficient but you have it backwards. You see, gasoline comes from crude oil a very thick almost tar like substance and yes, there is hydrogen in it. Now look at water, there is also hydrogen in it as well. Looking at a gallon of each side by side, which one looks like it just might be easier to get hydrogen out of? Water only has two things in it, 2 molecules of hydrogen & 1 molecule of oxygen while crude oil has many, many components to it mostly of which is carbon, which is waste. It takes many more times units of energy to extract hydrogen from oil than water. Burning fossil fuels puts billions of tons of poisonous gases into the atmosphere while burning hydrogen produces NO poisonous gases at all if fact it produces water vapor--- good for the environment.
It sound to me as if the Oil or Gas company it seems you work for has mis-informed you about science.
The second part of your concern about electricity is well noted, except the part about using it to electrolyze water that is efficient especially if the power is produced by solar. The Interstate Traveler produces 850,000 watts of power/mile of track so a 100 mile section would produce 85 mega watts. The Eisenhower road system is 54,000+ miles. You do the math, ya think there's enough power to make some hydrogen? It only takes 4200 watts to make a cubic meter of hydrogen. Solar PV technology TODAY is capable of delivering 80% of full rated power during any daylight hour, that is as long as the sun rises they work. The good news, we don't have to wait till 2030 but by then PV tech. will be cheaper than dirt. AS for the comment from the guy that was an Engineer from a power company and saw a solar power field and said the cable was too small. He's the reason there’s power outages in the country... probably rides a bike to work. I'm still laughing about that one.
I wanted to help you dry out your "Wet blanket" if I can. To help answer, "Where do we get the hydrogen?" Well... Hydrogen is the most abundant fuel source in the universe. Now I think your next statement was referring to energy conversion and what’s more practical and efficient but you have it backwards. You see, gasoline comes from crude oil a very thick almost tar like substance and yes, there is hydrogen in it. Now look at water, there is also hydrogen in it as well. Looking at a gallon of each side by side, which one looks like it just might be easier to get hydrogen out of? Water only has two things in it, 2 molecules of hydrogen & 1 molecule of oxygen while crude oil has many, many components to it mostly of which is carbon, which is waste. It takes many more times units of energy to extract hydrogen from oil than water. Burning fossil fuels puts billions of tons of poisonous gases into the atmosphere while burning hydrogen produces NO poisonous gases at all if fact it produces water vapor--- good for the environment.
It sound to me as if the Oil or Gas company it seems you work for has mis-informed you about science.
The second part of your concern about electricity is well noted, except the part about using it to electrolyze water that is efficient especially if the power is produced by solar. The Interstate Traveler produces 850,000 watts of power/mile of track so a 100 mile section would produce 85 mega watts. The Eisenhower road system is 54,000+ miles. You do the math, ya think there's enough power to make some hydrogen? It only takes 4200 watts to make a cubic meter of hydrogen. Solar PV technology TODAY is capable of delivering 80% of full rated power during any daylight hour, that is as long as the sun rises they work. The good news, we don't have to wait till 2030 but by then PV tech. will be cheaper than dirt. AS for the comment from the guy that was an Engineer from a power company and saw a solar power field and said the cable was too small. He's the reason there’s power outages in the country... probably rides a bike to work. I'm still laughing about that one.
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